Does 'refinement model' mean "never grow pots, never Anderson flats?"

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I purchased a bunch of Japanese imported Tokoname Grow pots like in the photo. I also have pond baskets and anderson flats.

But the more I learn about Mirai’s refinement model, it seems like all of these methods would be inferior to repotting trees directly into containers at the proportion that you intend to keep the tree in its final refinement stage.

From my Mirai notes:

  1. The higher foliar density per square inch of a tree with tertiary refinement will drive more tissue growth than a bigger pot, essentially “growing” more than a “grow pot”.

  2. The containerized environment, constraining the roots, is what drives the tree into greater refinement.

  3. It’s inefficient to grow lots of roots that you’ll simply cut off, which can impact the strength and balance of the tree

Have I missed any key notes?

All of this sounds like you would never use grow pots, and never use anderson flats. Does Mirai ever use such things?

But, finally…when I look at side-by-side comparisons of really young material that have been grown in baskets compared with those in pots, after 3-5 years, it seems like the pond baskets are significantly more mature with a lot more foliar density. I’ve never seen a side-by-side from a bonsai pot, nursery container, and pond basket.

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Hey mate,

Of your points, there is a key to Anderson flats vs small pots - what are your current design goal and what stage of development are you at?

There are multiple streams where Ryan is working on trees in Anderson flats, but the goals of those trees is to work on primary/ secondary structure typically vs the tertiary work of a tree where refinement is the goal.

On your point 3, Ryan has taught when going into refinement, don’t do step downs of pot sizes over multiple repots, but go to the final, presumably smallest, size and focus on that root mass, instead of cutting down to an intermediary amount of roots in a middle size pot and have the tree grow a bunch of roots that you are just going to remove in two years time when you step down again.

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Do you have any of the videos where he is working out of Anderson flats in mind? I would love to see.

I’m not sure those trees would be in Anderson flats “because” the goal is to set primary/secondary structure. It would seem more precise to me that they are in Anderson flats because they are in a pure root recovery-mode, more like keeping yamadori in a box for 2 years or so. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but you also often (but not always) want to set primary structure at some point in that timeframe.

I also think there’s a big difference between primary and secondary structure as the goal. If setting secondary structure is the goal, you essentially want backbudding which comes from resource mobility. But resource mobility can be perfectly driven by just good ol oxygen and water balance. Additionally, in a pot, you’ll likely be at a more fine-tuned grain particle size, which will get more refined roots, which in turn will drive more resource mobility.

All together, this would add up to going into a pot for anything more than the most course primary branch development. What do you think?

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I think this is a vid you are looking for

Ok the link isn’t working properly but the title is 'growing container selection ’

But also, yeah, one you good with structure, and you are in refinement mode, you want the appropriately sized container, if not the final ornate vessel to limit the resources for a slower growth rate. Videos where Ryan is actively working on a tree in a flat (search the Japanese maple content) it is not refinement work he’s generally demonstrating

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Thanks for the video pointer. I watched the container video and my takeaways are:

  • All containers are viable, including black bucket nursery containers with 50+% organic if you are using them for the right functional purpose. I have a tree in their in pure primary development and that is perfectly fine. I have a shohin hinoki I already pruned down to shohin size in a big-ass bucket with organic, moving into secondary and refinement. It will certainly die.
  • I still have an open question, not answered in the video, about secondary refinement. I believe more detail is needed on which containers are ideal for secondary refinement.

One nitpick. Ornate final vessels are not limiting resources because of the flywheel with increasingly ramified foliage and dense fine roots. You can get more trunk girth from the additional resources of dense tertiary refined foliage than on a larger pot with a tree in a different phase of development.