Wealways had well water south aPh of 6.6 to 6.8,
They installed aWater Treatment Plantlast year and now the PH is 7.3. How will this affect Nutrient solubility and plant heath in general? Is this a big enough change to beconcerned with?
Thank you for your responses.
In reading other posts on this topic I have found conflicting info. Anylong term experience with PH in toss range would be appreciated. The trees currently look and are very healthy. Concerned more with long term,
TDS are 128
Water goes through a 3M Filter to remove Chlorine and Salts.
Mathematically, pH is a log base 10 scale so the difference in 6 to 7 is 10x less hydrogen ions, 6 to 8 would be 100x.
But for our purposes, total alkalinity (sometimes mg/L CaCO3) is just as important because it tells you the buffering capacity of your water (how much bicarbonates and carbonates) and its ability to resist pH changes. This tells us how our water reacts to the substrate. Nursery containers with peat moss or barks can be more acidic and the plant root exudates can also increase this acidity. A high pH of 8.5 but a low alkalinity of ~40 mg/L, will have a low buffering capacity and less potential to drive your substrate more basic. Conversely, at 8.5pH but 200 mg/L alkalinity, the water will drive your substrate more basic by the addition of carbonates and salts.
In the USA, municipal water systems raise the pH so the water is corrosive on pipes. Depending on the additive, it may not have as much impact on total alkalinity. Most municipal water in the interior of the US comes from groundwater with high bicarbonates/carbonates from sedimentary rocks or from surface water collected from runoff that interacts with weathered sedimentary rocks.
Does your water treatment plant post a yearly water quality report? Your TDS of 125 indicates that your total alkalinity is likely on the lower end and the increase in pH might not have a big impact. Especially, if you are in an area with good rainfall to supplement your normal watering.
agree with Jayhawk except I think he means the alkalinity is raised to avoid corrosion. typo I suspect. I think we get to fixated on keeping pH exactly at some magic number. what you use for fertilizer and soil can impact the pH and Jayhawk discussion on buffering capacity is very relevant. It all depends on the buffering capacity. think about RO water and how easy it is to change its pH with very little acid or alkali addition. then think about a blend of liquid fertilizer and how much more it takes to change its pH. all about buffering capacity. if your trees are healthy don’t sweat some of this stuff. that is my view. Still thinking about the whole Apical approach and how that might be beneficial to what we are doing with bonsai.
Eden has a great chart you can find on their website under the ph up or ph down product showing nutrient lock out. They suggest 6.4 ph for maximum nutrient uptake
Yikes! Thanks for the correction. Should read, municipalities raise the pH (make more basic) so the water is NOT corrosive to pipes. The opposite of what they did in Flint, MI.
yes. there is already enough witchcraft around water and its needing to be absolutely at some pH without understanding chemistry. I knew you just typed wrong based on your knowledge of buffering. have you sent any leaves into apical? I am thinking about it as I want to see what I get and what they recommend. Ryan swears by it but has sworn by other things in the past that have not panned out.
My well water has really high calcium in WI. hardness is around 250. pH runs around 7.8 as it is in limestone but I don’t correct it. tend to use acid fertilizers though and throw a bunch of epsom salts on my tridents when they get orange leaves. went to higher akadama in the soil after Andrew Robson pounded on the issue. seeing better back budding, etc. not a simple thing that we do one thing and magic happens.
Cheryl A Sykora, CIH,CSP,CHMM
Senior Industrial Hygienist
Principal
Legend Technical Services, Inc.
88 Empire Drive
St Paul, MN 55103
651-221-4085
612-619-6547 (cell preferred)
Apical can test your water as well as do a sap analysis which of course will include ph.
Ryan has been using Apical for 3-4 years now but the testing gets expensive.
An Apical rec is 95% Eden products so they have a bit of knowledge, not hype, here say, or sorcery.
Eden say 6.4 for the optimal nutrient uptake.
I think anything between 6.3-6.6could go unaltered
High ph or very low ph can to lead to nutrient lock out, the question is how many years of bad water can a particular tree handle before it starts to see issues. And is there a way to fix it without fixing the water. Blueberries love a lower ph so they thrive with a very acidic water. I think 6.5 is just kind of a average number to shoot for to cover most plants needs.
I collect rain water off the roof and with a chemical test in my area in Northern Vermont it is always in the mid 6’s.
Changing to a target of 6.4 has led many people to see improvements in their trees here at the local club.
If I have to water with tap water I run a carbon block filter to reduce chlorine, then I draw it in buckets and let it sit for a day minimum to off gas other chemicals, then treat right before use with household 5% vinegar. I do not buy ph up or down chemicals.
Some people believe water quality is just as or more important than then what you feed.
Food for thought
I have sent them a few samples to both address deficiencies and from just pure scientific curiosity. I’ve also done splits with traditional lab tissue analysis. I started the program with the recommended Eden products on an old bougainvillea that had persistent leave and bract issues. It went downhill fast and I discontinued the treatment. But I never tested water with them and can’t believe they even recommend products without knowing irrigation water chemistry. I may have also done something wrong on dosage. I’ve foliar fed the iron on my satsuki and other trees, but I won’t use the Cal-Mag until I understand more about my water interaction with my various substrates and fertilizers over time. I think the Apical sap testing is a very interesting, but my trees and budget doesn’t allow for comprehensive annual testing. I working on home pH, EC, and alkalinity testing and analyzing the container leachate (search NC State pour-through method) to better taylor my fertilization to water and substrate. But that’s another thread and I don’t want to overrun Rich’s thread.
I would recommend testing your water for irrigation suitability with a lab. I use a “local” lab in Dodge City, KS recommended in Dr. Whitcomb’s research articles. He invented rootmaker pots and Micromax fertilizer for the nursery industry. But ultimately bonsai in shallow containers not repotted for years is different from nursery container production.
carbon removes organics and does nothing for your chlorine but letting it sit evaporates it out so you are removing it just not in the way you think. I suspect lower pH water would help some of my trees - azaleas would like it. I can collect rain water and that seems to be better than my well water for azaleas. we are having a lot of rain this year compared to the previous two years and my trees love it. our rain water is running alkaline although with no buffering capacity as it has no dissolved minerals. I suspect it it the canadian wild fires that create the alkalinity. has been that way for quite a while.
water and soils - two endless debates by everyone. I think deciduous are the most sensitive to water issues. my conifers seem to be fine with whatever I give them. I won’t even attempt a stewartia as I know they hate high calcium water.
I think a subject that is difficult to even understand is the impact of changing the pH on city water that has been treated to prevent corrosion. what exactly is changing in that water besides just altering the pH. fortunately I have well water so no special treatments.
I am thinking of delving into the whole apical thing though as it is intriguing.
Cheryl A Sykora, CIH,CSP,CHMM
Senior Industrial Hygienist
Principal
Legend Technical Services, Inc.
88 Empire Drive
St Paul, MN 55103
651-221-4085
612-619-6547 (cell preferred)
| CMP
August 16 |
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Apical can test your water as well as do a sap analysis which of course will include ph.
Ryan has been using Apical for 3-4 years now but the testing gets expensive.
An Apical rec is 95% Eden products so they have a bit of knowledge, not hype, here say, or sorcery.
Eden say 6.4 for the optimal nutrient uptake.
I think anything between 6.3-6.6could go unaltered
High ph or very low ph can to lead to nutrient lock out, the question is how many years of bad water can a particular tree handle before it starts to see issues. And is there a way to fix it without fixing the water. Blueberries love a lower ph so they thrive with a very acidic water. I think 6.5 is just kind of a average number to shoot for to cover most plants needs.
I collect rain water off the roof and with a chemical test in my area in Northern Vermont it is always in the mid 6’s.
Changing to a target of 6.4 has led many people to see improvements in their trees here at the local club.
If I have to water with tap water I run a carbon block filter to reduce chlorine, then I draw it in buckets and let it sit for a day minimum to off gas other chemicals, then treat right before use with household 5% vinegar. I do not buy ph up or down chemicals.
Some people believe water quality is just as or more important than then what you feed.
Food for thought
yes. the water characteristics are important. I own a water testing laboratory so can do whatever I want on that front. really want to understand the plant material though. the logic of using various products is not clear to me so I think I am going to delve into testing leaves and see what happens. what I have. maybe a few trees. expensive per sample but comparatively speaking for lab work not all that bad.
bonsai present so many facets for learning.
Cheryl A Sykora, CIH,CSP,CHMM
Senior Industrial Hygienist
Principal
Legend Technical Services, Inc.
88 Empire Drive
St Paul, MN 55103
651-221-4085
612-619-6547 (cell preferred)
If I remember correctly when Mirai first started with Apical they were actually recommending treatment of a 50 gallon barrel of water with wolastinite, agronite, soft rock phosphate etc to change the water quality. The problem was that the injectable powders needed constant stirring and they settled to the bottom of the bonsai container and formed a slimy mud blocking the air exchange.
By working with Ryan they started alternating their approach to liquid inputs as these work better in ALP soil. So how they apply recs to farming soil is radically different then how we must apply it to bonsai in ALP. Because we can’t have these powders clogging everything up.
So I do believe they are very aware of water quality issues and are well educated in that area. What we are doing here is off the scale and what works in normal horticulture may not be applicable as this is more like hydroponics.
Obviously testing your water is a great thing to do, but other than filtering it and changing the PH the average homeowner doesn’t have too many other options available. As usually they only have a few sources of water available. Municipal or rain, pond, lake water. Fresh water Fish tank water could be used if the chemicals used are plant safe but it again would probably benefit from a ph adjustment.
Sorry you had bad luck with your first go with Apical, I have had excellent results and highly recommend it but it is expensive and time consuming to figure it all out.
I too didn’t like the look of the plants with cal-mag and swapped it out for cal king. One is wolastinite, the other is arragonite.
I don’t think I spelled everything correctly and I am too lazy to look it up but you get the idea.
Because we are all in different areas of the country, some on municipal, some on well, some on pond or rain water, water quality is going to vary greatly.
Starting by correcting your ph is fast, easy and readily available to most people if they choose to try it out. What’s the worse that’s going to happen?
Good luck in whatever path you choose, if you can drink it, it’s safe for your plants but it might not be ideal for them or even us.
I’m positive Apical and Mirai are knowledgeable on water quality. Mirai’s low pH water and metals mobilization has been talked about and they have also discussed the more alkaline water in most of the country. I just meant that at the lower level of money I spent on one foliage test, I didn’t get the red carpet service (understandably so) and that resulted in my own blind spot on water quality since I was taking the low end range of constituents from my municipal water report. I do not have anything negative to say on the Apical experience as a service. In fact, I have enjoyed sharing results with other users on their web interface and geeking out at the comparisons. I understand the liability involved and proprietary nature of the tests, but I’d love to see a more open source database on bonsai sap testing compared to substrates, irrigation water quality and landscape/native sap testing.
I also forgot to mention that your use of Epsom salts is interesting and I’ve used it on a limited basis to correct deficiencies. I’ll plan to start a thread documenting my success, setbacks, and failures.
That’s interesting information. All under the sink or whole house carbon block filters I have seen that are sold for household applications list a carbon block filter as a way to reduce chlorine, so perhaps it is another marketing lie. Good to know!! Off gassing the water for 48 hours was suggested by Eden as they are huge on water quality but also understand a home owner is limited in their options. I believe they actually sell a water filtering system for farms or whole house applications, but it takes some digging to to find it. Sediment filter into bio char into KDF if I remember correctly. They also recommended an inline carbon filter to reduce chlorine.. It is all good information and it is great to see how everyone has their own take on things, that’s how we learn! The Apical testing and recommendation using the Eden products is fun, interesting , but a little time consuming to figure it all out. Thanks for the information on the carbon filters, always learning. Have a great weekend.
there are chemicals that react with chlorine but carbon is not one of them. carbon removes the organic impurities that are created by chlorination like the halogen hydrocarbons that you don’t want small children to drink but chlorine, itself, no. heavy chlorination results in a lot of really bad actors in your water. water reports in the Phoenix, AZ area have these identified in the water. carbon filter will remove those and I suppose indirectly treat the EFFECTS of chlorination. A lot of water treatment is witchcraft in my view. that is why I have been interested in apical as it doesn’t sound so much like witchcraft.
add carbon to your soils in the form of biochar also tends to trap organics and creates a slow release which is good for fertilization. another interesting thing about carbon. I haven’t really worked with biochar but Ryan has an interesting lecture on it from the woman who promotes biochar.
Cheryl A Sykora, CIH,CSP,CHMM
Senior Industrial Hygienist
Principal
Legend Technical Services, Inc.
88 Empire Drive
St Paul, MN 55103
651-221-4085
612-619-6547 (cell preferred)
Thanks for the info. A Apical rec is 90-95% Eden Blue Gold Products which I why I often refer to Eden because they created the products. Eden will answer the phone and often will answer emails where Apical is typically not interested in sugaring things down to a consumer level of application rates or information. Both great companies to deal with. Eden is big on water quality as the driving force of plant health but totally understand that people are limited to what is available to them. Very knowledgeable and nice folks to deal with.
Because you have a science based approach the expanded test showing heavy metals and the rec are around $125 and you get quite a bit of information, the trick is how will you apply the rec, and will you continue testing long term. I use a lot of Eden products now without on going testing so if you get a rec, have Ryan reduce the application rates to 5 gallons I think he still offers this to pro members at no charge. If you ever have questions reach out to Eden directly as they really are very helpful folks.
Thank you for the extensive relies. I know how much time and Eritrea this takes.
I have been involved in a Bonsai for 50 years. I know enough now to be concerned about sayer quality and PH. Once again Thank
Thank you for the extensive relies. I know how much time and Eritrea this takes.
I have been involved in a Bonsai for 50 years. I know enough now to be concerned about sayer quality and PH. Thank You
