Political bonsai

@BackcountryDan: completely agree, but I think discussing the roots of social inequality are probably out of scope here. :wink: I’m mostly content arguing – I think persuasively – that groups inside large cultures that are, over the course of time, continually not representative are de facto exclusionary.

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@BackcountryDan Welcome to the conversation! Since it appears that you and @hierophantic are on the same page, let me address the both of you. If you don’t mind of course.

I still just cannot understand, and I really want to, this exclusionary behavior of which you both speak. Perhaps it’s merely my ignorance or my inability to grasp the idea that a majority of people would exclude others based on race, sex, etc. Dialing it back to US bonsai groups, do you believe that most are denying access to people due to such immutable characteristics? If anyone knows of specific groups doing this, I think we would all agree that the proper action must be taken.

@Carl: bluntly:

Is your local bonsai group NOT majority white, male, and relatively wealthy? Then you’re set.

But I bet your local bonsai group IS majority white, male, and relatively wealthy. I don’t need a peer reviewed study to tell me that; it’s enough to look around at all the bonsai groups I know from different places in the country and see that every single one is majority white, male, and relatively wealthy.

If your local bonsai group IS majority white, male, and relatively wealthy, has it been that way for awhile? If so: it’s exclusionary. You can tell because it doesn’t have many or any people who aren’t white, aren’t male, and aren’t relatively wealthy.

Like I said before, exclusion doesn’t need to be intentional or malicious to happen. The normative population of the US is less than half male, only 75% white alone, and overwhelmingly fewer than two paychecks away from homelessness. If your local bonsai group (or any group) doesn’t roughly have parity with those figures, it’s exclusionary.

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@hierophantic: Can only bonsai groups who are, and have been for a while, a majority white, male, and relatively wealthy able to be exclusionary or can any bonsai group with a static demographic? Or maybe a different way of asking it would be: which part constitutes the exclusion; being white, male, and relatively wealthy, time as a static demographic, or both?

I’m sorry if I seem cynical. I really am enjoying this conversation as I don’t get many opportunities to talk with someone (or people) who have studied this topic as long as you. I’m hoping to be able to share what I learn here with my local peers. Thank you for continuing to engage with me :smile:

On a side note - I’m not that interested in the source or authority of one’s information. It is important to a degree, but pointing to it as a definitive proof of truth holds no water as both would be logical fallacies. All this to say that I also don’t need a peer reviewed study on your behalf, so no worries.

@Carl: the point of including BOTH the demographic indicators AND the time indicator is that it avoids what I think is a pretty thoughtless straw man argument – along the lines of “but what if I founded a group yesterday with my two best friends and we all happen to be white?”

If a bonsai group is disproportionately white/male/wealthy, and it’s been around long enough to have had the opportunity to get the word out – such that either they chose not to get the word out OR marginalized people have categorically opted not to join – it’s exclusionary.

@hierophantic: But a bonsai group that did choose to get the word out and marginalized people have categorically opted not to join would not be exclusionary, correct?

@Carl: as I said earlier:

If your local bonsai group IS majority white, male, and relatively wealthy, has it been that way for awhile? If so: it’s exclusionary. You can tell because it doesn’t have many or any people who aren’t white, aren’t male, and aren’t relatively wealthy.

@hierophantic: I remember that; I was just trying to clarify.

So let’s say I have a couple local bonsai groups who I know have been a majority white, male, and relatively wealthy for a long time, should I confront them? And I suppose the same for others in similar situations.

@Carl: I think the answer is unequivocally “yes,” if living in an inclusive society and fostering inclusivity in US bonsai is important to you.

@hierophantic: Well, I think that’s all of my questions. Thank you for your time.

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Gee Whiz! Who let this cat out of the bag!

Sorry @LeonardB,
That would be me.

I think Mr. Ghandi might disagree about shutting things down quietly.

That statement is enormously ignorant. It’s also completely outside the scope of discussion. I will not be replying to you further here.

Thank god for small favors!

As an invisible female, when I’ve joined clubs in my area here in Brisbane, or gone to the various shows, exhibitions and conferences, they are mostly male oriented and peopled. I haven’t suffered as Juan has, but I certainly understand being marginalised. Luckily here in Australia there is hope. A weekend conference in August, with all female presenters and demonstrators.

If you’re in NSW in August, this would be a must see, even if you’re white, male and well off.

I wonder if this is likely to happen anytime soon in the US?

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That conference makes me so, SO happy. Thank you so much for sharing it. I’d love to see more events in the US focused on marginalized people, but I think unfortunately that that might be far off.

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Agreed, the few female demonstrators I’ve seen have been very engaging and entertaining, and I’m looking forward to seeing more.

On another note, it’s not bonsai, but could be considered, there’s a man here in Oz who is regularly asked to talk on panels etc, and he will only accept if there are equal numbers of females to males. If something similar to this was brought into common practise, with marginalised speakers being given a chance to be heard, then there’s a chance that these marginalised people might start getting involved, rather than thinking there’s no place for them in the bonsai world, the business world, or any type of hobby world.

Here’s a chance for you, Ryan, to bring in some female presenters to help break the mould. :slight_smile:

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I didn’t put that very well, what I should have said is that marginalised people might start getting involved, rather than being made to think there is no place for them… because that’s how we’re treated, in many cases, we’re invisible, and made to feel like there’s nothing here for us…

Imagine, if you will, (if you’re a white male involved in your bonsai club,) that you turned up at a bonsai club and you were the only white male… all the people there are females 50 and up

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@MelBAU: Why do you feel invisible? Do you feel this way because you are a woman?

How are the various shows, exhibitions, and conferences you attend male oriented? Do they advertise only to men? And how are marginalized people “made to think there is no place for them” and “made to feel like there’s nothing here for us [marginalized people]”?